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What It Means To Be "Ordained To Go And Bring Forth Fruit."

Mike,

You will remember a couple of weeks ago Steven Crook gave a presentation on what it means to stand. The basic point is that one could be standing outside or inside, in the flesh or in Christ. The Greek word for stand is histemi, G2476, which properly denotes an upright and active position like standing

I have just finished reading your letter, recently posted, to E__ in which you make reference to John 15:16 while explaining When Is "My Father's Kingdom" and What Is "The Fruit Of The Vine?"  I enjoyed reading your response, especially how you encouraged the writer. I was prompted by the Lord to take a closer look at the verse, so I used e-Sword.

Joh 15:16  Ye⁵²¹⁰ have not³⁷⁵⁶ chosen¹⁵⁸⁶ me,³¹⁶⁵ but²³⁵ I¹⁴⁷³ have chosen¹⁵⁸⁶ you,⁵²⁰⁹ and²⁵³² ordained⁵⁰⁸⁷ you,⁵²⁰⁹that²⁴⁴³ ye⁵²¹⁰ should go⁵²¹⁷ and²⁵³² bring forth⁵³⁴² fruit,²⁵⁹⁰ and²⁵³² your⁵²¹⁶ fruit²⁵⁹⁰ should remain:³³⁰⁶ that²⁴⁴³whatsoever^{3748, 302} ye shall ask¹⁵⁴ of the³⁵⁸⁸ Father³⁹⁶² in¹⁷²² my³⁴⁵⁰ name,³⁶⁸⁶ he may give¹³²⁵ it you.⁵²¹³

One of the first things I noticed is that the verse has two hina (gk.) purpose clauses, the G2443 word 'that' or more properly 'in order that' or 'so that'. You know they connect what is before with what comes after them.

Well, I'm pretty clear on being chosen (Aorist in this verse - am choosing) and you covered it in your response to the writer, so I decided to look at the word 'ordained'. It appears that the Greek is tithemi and that it is a close cousin to histemi (stand), but in this case it is quite opposite in that the position is passive and/or horizontal. Both words can be used to describe the setting or placing of something which is distinctly what Christ is doing here in this verse. The difference is to set (stand) something up (histemi) or to place (lay) something down (tithemi).

Strong G5087

τίθημι

tithēmi

tith'-ay-mee

A prolonged form of a primary word θέω theō (which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses); to place (in the widest application, literally and figuratively; properly in a passive or horizontal posture, and thus different from G2476, which properly denotes an upright and active position, while G2749 is properly reflexive and utterly prostrate): - + advise, appoint, bow, commit, conceive, give, X kneel down, lay (aside, down, up), make, ordain, purpose, put, set (forth), settle, sink down.

Thayer Definition:

1) to set, put, place

1a) to place or lay

1b) to put down, lay down

1b1) to bend down

1b2) to lay off or aside, to wear or carry no longer

1b3) to lay by, lay aside money

1c) to set on (serve) something to eat or drink

1d) to set forth, something to be explained by discourse

2) to make

2a) to make (or set) for one's self or for one's use

3) to set, fix establish

3a) to set forth

3b) to establish, ordain

Part of Speech: verb

I then noticed the other, resulting side of the hina which is 'should go' and the Greek here is hupago, G5217. The verb is in the subjunctive mood which puts it in the potential, thus the 'should' part. But the 'going' is a little different that one might imagine in that it is 'going away' like withdrawing or retiring from someone or something.
Strong G5217

ὑπάγω

hupagō

hoop-ag'-o

From G5259 and G71; to lead (oneself) under, that is, withdraw or retire (as if sinking out of sight), literally or figuratively: - depart, get hence, go (a-) way.

Thayer Definition:

1) to lead under, bring under

2) to withdraw one's self, to go away, depart

Part of Speech: verb

And then I saw what the spirit is saying in using these two words: Christ has chosen those whom he would lay aside (utterly prostrate) in order that they could be going away (as if sinking out of sight - decreasing) and could be carrying fruit (as a branch of the vine).

It's exactly like he said in John 12.24, the grain of wheat dying to bring much fruit and like Paul explained in Galatians 2.20; crucified with Christ - nevertheless I live – but not I – but Christ lives in me.

And all this in order that (hina) I could be asking of the Father in Christ-like character, and He could be giving to, with and by us.

S____