What Are We? Role of Women Clarified
Hi J____,Hi guys!
Hope all is well with you both.
I know we are at some times women and at some times men. I think you would both agree with this. But, there is a third thing we are, which is neither male nor female. The combination of this is what struck me as most interesting. When we are converted, we are spiritually circumcised (male) and the bride (female) and neither. So, going beyond our normal thoughts of the ying/yang, male/female existence, we must also understand that we are something else, something that encompasses being sons of God, brides of Christ and neither male nor female.
So my question boils down to this: who are we? I feel like we are the blind men trying to describe an elephant - we each have a piece, but none of us has the whole. The closest answer I've come to is that we are God's spirit. This flesh is, of course, very temporary and will be destroyed. The spiritual "flesh" within us will also be destroyed. What is left seems to have many attributes, part of which has been described to us in terms of the traditional male/female but another part which cannot be described in these terms.
Hope this isn't too far off in the deep end!
Love,
J____
Thanks for the question.
You are definitely not "off the deep end." This is a subject which was under a lot of discussion in the Pentecostal church when I was a child and has always been a point of contention since Paul and Peter made their very controversial statements about women being subject to and submissive to their husbands.
I have answered many questions about the meaning of being neither male nor female with the very point Paul is making when he penned those words. Those words are found at the end of the third chapter of Galatians. Here is how that chapter begins:
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if [it be] yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
This is the chapter that tells us that until faith comes we are all "under the law...under sin." The whole force of Paul's point in this chapter is that being in Christ is all that matters. He does not have family relations in His mind. He does not have the proper role of women in the church in his mind. Paul's point in this chapter is to tell these Galatians who are being led back into the synagogues of Judaism that we are all part of the same body, that body being the body of Christ. Now look at what Paul says at the end of this chapter:
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Look at how many times the holy spirit inspires Paul to mention the law in these verses. Paul wants us to know that he is very aware of the fact that these Galatian converts are dealing with people who want to persuade them to go back under the 613 laws of Moses. Paul's point is not the role of women in the church here, verse 28, the verse which all who want to ignore Paul's inspired words concerning the godly structure of the home and the church use to nullify Paul's other statements of family structure and church order. Paul's statement here wasn't even concerned with the subject of a family and church order and structure.
Now in 1Co 14, Eph 5 and 1Co 7 Paul does have the role of women in the church in view, and he even brings the law back into the discussion. But he doesn't do it in the way some wish he had. Contrast the way Paul handles these two subjects. Look at how Paul speaks when the subject of the family and how God's children who "are all one in Christ Jesus" are expected to comport themselves in this age:
1Co 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: [It is] good for a man not to touch a woman.
1Co 7:2 Nevertheless, [to avoid] fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
1Co 7:3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
1Co 7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
1Co 7:5 Defraud ye not one the other, except [it be] with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
1Co 7:6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
1Co 7:7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
This is all good sound advice as to how physical Christians in vessels of clay ought to be comporting themselves as wives and husbands, who are the heads of any family. To place words of this nature into the sphere of the discourse taking place in Gal 3 is to twist God's word right out of recognition of the subject under discussion and to gut it of its strength and of its point. While there is always a spiritual application to all scripture, there is also an outward application. The outward application of these scripures is to give us the spiritual principle that Christ is subject to his Father.
It does violence to God's word to take words concerned with the fact that we are all one body and that 'one body' is Christ, and turn those words into an excuse to ignore what is plainly taught everywhere else in the New Testament. That was the very M.O. of the Adversary in the garden. 'Did God say this... why that can't possibly be. Just reason it out in your minds Adam and Eve.' That is what the adversary is doing in the minds of those who insist Paul's inspired words in Gal 3:28 contradict the inspired words of so many other verses like 1Co 14; Eph 5; Col 3:18-22; 1Ti 2:9-12; 1Co 7. If any man think himself to be spiritual, let him acknowledge that [all of these verses] are the commandments of the Lord (1Co 14:37).
Look at what is taught concerning family relations and order in the church, by the same man who teaches that we are all one in Christ.
1Co 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
1Co 14:30 If [any thing] be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
1Co 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1Co 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1Co 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1Co 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
1Co 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
1Co 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
The very subject of these verses is how we are to maintain order in church services. That is the subject under discussion. Especially notice verse 37. We are accused to following 'dead letter' by believing what Paul commands as to who has what position in the church. Does verse 37 sound like believing God's written Word is following 'dead letter'? If any man think of himself as spiritual, acknowledge that what Paul writes "are the commandments of the Lord." According to Paul, whose words are the commandment of the Lord, it is spiritual that prophets prophesy and women keep silence. According to Paul, it is spiritual to acknowledge that "ye may all prophesy" does not include women. Does anyone think that Paul just forgot what he had told those Galatians in Gal 3:28? I cannot go there. Paul knew what he meant by Galatians 3:28. He made his point very clear:
Now here is another section of scripture which is dealing with the family and the church. Some have said:
The whole church is female is true inasmuch as we are all one as Christ's bride. But that doesn't negate nor nullify all these verses which are specifically dealing with what Paul warns us are "commandments of the Lord" concerning the roles of prophets and women in the church services:
This is the same law Paul was referring to in Gal 3. Paul is not confused. We may be, but it is all very clear in His mind, so he warns all those who want to twist his words:
If we think we are spiritual when it come to understanding the mind of God concerning the order in the churches of God and who are the prophets prophesying, then we need to acknowledge that what we are being instructed in 1Co 14 are "the commandments of God" concerning those prophets and the fact that they are not to be women.
You know I pointed out years ago that the word translated 'silence' is actually quiet, and is the same thought being conveyed when Paul tells the prophets to hold their peace while another is speaking.
I could go on over to 1Ti 2, a chapter which is completely committed to how we conduct ourselves in the home and in the church, and behold, the message is exactly the same:
Here is yet another section of scripture which points out the fact that Paul does not separate the family from the church. Paul says they are one and the same, and yet at the end of these verses He clarifies himself with the word he uses so often to make himself clear: 'Nevertheless... even though I am speaking spiritually... we still must obey the commandments of the Lord regarding our conduct before this world.'
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.We are all 'children of God'. We are all 'one in Christ'. We are all "Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise." That is the point Paul is making when he says "there is neither male nor female." It does violence to God's word to pit these words of Paul against Paul's own words regarding who can and cannot prophesy in the church in 1Co 14. Look again at this verse in which Paul goes overboard to make himself clear on this subject:
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.Now that statement comes on the very heels of this warning:
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1Co 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
When the false doctrine of women being able to preach is brought in, one has bought into confusion, which is the very definition of Babylon where this doctrine is thriving today. Paul is asking does the Word of God come out from any of us. Paul is asking, are we the ones who decide what is spiritual and what is not, or does God's Word decide that? God's answer is: Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth (Joh 17:17). God's Word says it is spiritual to say that a woman should not teach or preach in the church.
Now here is another section of scripture which is dealing with the family and the church. Some have said:
"The whole church is female. Where is the difference between Joyce Myers preaching a lie and Charles Stanley preaching the same lie? If I followed either one I would be following a woman"
The whole church is female is true inasmuch as we are all one as Christ's bride. But that doesn't negate nor nullify all these verses which are specifically dealing with what Paul warns us are "commandments of the Lord" concerning the roles of prophets and women in the church services:
1Co 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
1Co 14:30 If [any thing] be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
1Co 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
This is the same law Paul was referring to in Gal 3. Paul is not confused. We may be, but it is all very clear in His mind, so he warns all those who want to twist his words:
1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
You know I pointed out years ago that the word translated 'silence' is actually quiet, and is the same thought being conveyed when Paul tells the prophets to hold their peace while another is speaking.
I could go on over to 1Ti 2, a chapter which is completely committed to how we conduct ourselves in the home and in the church, and behold, the message is exactly the same:
1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
1Ti 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
1Ti 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
"Adam was first formed, then Eve," is the reason for all of this. When Paul makes this so clear, we need to realize that if we really do consider ourselves to be spiritual, then we will conduct ourselves in a manner which reveals that we know that Christ is our head, just as Christ always recognizes His Father as His head. "Adam was first formed, then Eve," is just another way of saying "the head of Christ is God." It is that structure and order set in place by God and affirmed by Christ and His Christ.
Here is yet another section of scripture which points out the fact that Paul does not separate the family from the church. Paul says they are one and the same, and yet at the end of these verses He clarifies himself with the word he uses so often to make himself clear: 'Nevertheless... even though I am speaking spiritually... we still must obey the commandments of the Lord regarding our conduct before this world.'
Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Eph 5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife [see] that she reverence [her] husband.
I hope this helps to clear this up in your mind. What scriptures teach is not popular and will cause us all to be hated of all men. But they are true, and if we are given the grace to be faithful, then the rewards will make all of our sufferings (and times like these do cause me suffering) "will not be worthy to be compared to the glory that will be revealed in those who are given that grace."
Your brother in Christ,
Mike